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Web3 Growth Marketing w/ Justin of Safary

Web3 Growth Marketing w/ Justin of Safary

Shownotes

We discuss the following

  1. Justin's story and how it led to founding Safary.
  2. How he's managed to amass a large swath of the top web3 growth marketers into the Safary community.
  3. The 3-5 differences between web3 and web3 growth.
  4. Top 2-3 events in web3 over last past 12-months (note this was recorded in September!) that any growth marketer should pay attention too.
  5. A picture of the Martech landscape will look like in 2-5 years.
  6. The 2-3 people that Justin learns the most from in web3 growth and beyond.

Transcript

Bryan: [00:00:00] GM GM GM and welcome to one of our inaugural episodes of the Web three Made Simple Podcast by Ziggy, where we discuss Web three 10 s and Muse about how we'll go mainstream. We interview fellow founders and builders and tease out the insights that will help us all understand how this technology will affect our lives in the near and distant future.

Today we interview Justin Vogel, co-founder of Safari, the leading network and platform for Web three growth leaders trained at Princeton and in multiple YC and Sequoia back startups in Silicon Valley. Justin is now knees deep down the rabbit hole. He's taken it upon himself to assemble the best and brightest web three growth leaders into an invite only community called saf.

The roster is impressive. It contains growth. Leaders from Uniswap Opensea [00:01:00] Dune Ledger, unstoppable Domains, coin Market Cap, dapper Labs, Dow House Coin, vice Oma games to name, but a few in the appetite to join is real. In the last community application, round over 800 Web three growth leaders applied to get into their cozy corner of the.

I kid you not, I didn't even realize there were 800 growth leaders, period. Growth in web three is far different than web two. And Justin is one of the leading thinkers about those differences. So without further ado, let's kick off. Well, hey Justin. Nice to have you on one of our very first podcasts here as context.

So the purpose of this podcast is specifically to muse about. How Web three goes mainstream. I think we're still in this period where it's very much a cottage or industry and we're all a little bit peculiar in what we're doing. Eventually, this [00:02:00] is gonna touch everybody, and so this is like a forum to think about that.

Together. And for me, I just wanted to have some dedicated time to do that with smart folks. Yeah. And then an excuse to build relationships, et cetera. So I thought this would be nice. Obviously I'm a member of Safari. We've got some shared background too, and so excited to have you here. I guess to kick off, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about your story?

and how it led to founding safari. Sounds good. And don't mind me if I like throw in like random sound clips here and there, messing around with this podcasting thing. So all

Justin: good. Excited to be here and I think that the topic of your podcast is awesome. So excited to be one of your first guests too. A little bit about my background, so I guess we'll start in college.

I was a Middle Eastern Studies major, so I've always been fascinated by communities and different cultures. And when I graduated from college, I honestly didn't realize that I was gonna have to turn Middle Eastern studies into a career. And I didn't want to be a [00:03:00] CIA agent or a professor or do one of the other random things that Middle Eastern studies majors do.

So I came running back home to California, the Bay Area, which is where I grew up, and started looking for jobs. And obviously the only thing that's out here is tech. So I naturally found myself in tech and I started my career at a very early stage. Why Combinator startup? , I was there, everything else Guy, as I like to say, I joined a team of three engineering founders and so I was doing growth, I was doing product, I was doing marketing.

I was doing sales for a community of developers that we had built that then turned into a marketplace later. And so my background is a little bit in doing both community building there, traditional growth, marketing, some product. Later moved on to a larger marketplace where I was doing, again, traditional growth marketing, some ops led growth.

As one of your recent articles about building Philippines teams, I had that experience as well. And then finally, I built out an experimentation platform [00:04:00] at my most recent marketplace from zero to one. A typical kind of incentive experimentation of how to drive incremental revenue in your marketplace through experiment.

That all took me to last summer. I got the entrepreneurial itch to start my own company. I left, I started working on the HR tech company with my current co-founder. We soon realized that we weren't gonna be the ones to solve hiring, so we pivoted and so we entered Web three and started thinking about, we really obsessed with the future of work.

In web two, we started thinking about what does the future of work in web three look. Was really obsessed with DAOs and learning more about DAOs and doing Dow tooling. And that led us to realize that taking a product to market in Web three is quite different. And we needed to learn new skills that we didn't necessarily have in the growth space.

And by doing so, wanted to create a community of other people to learn how companies were growing in Web three. Cuz I'd say at the time it was very much a mystery. There was nothing written about Web three growth. We were [00:05:00] like, how are these companies actually grow? I went

Bryan: through the same thing. Some of them were growing at these rates that were just mind boggling.

When did you start Safari? That was a year ago now. Maybe

Justin: a lot less, actually. We started Safari in

Bryan: February. So February, February. That was rounded about the time that Axi was really hitting at Stride. Those numbers were insane. Ax

Justin: was hitting at Stride, but also in December when we first got into the space, there was SOS and then Looks Rare and all those types of things where we were just seeing.

Massive growth that was so much more powerful than anything even ever heard of in web two. Looks rare drove 20 billion in transactions in the first two months of their launch, which is just, what are we even talking about here? A lot of these other Twitters were gaining zero to 150,000 in like a month of launch.

Both web two channels, web three channels. People are just driving. Explosive [00:06:00] explosive growth, and I think it made everyone on the web two side do a big pause. Something's going on. Nobody really knows what it is, but we gotta learn more about this.

Bryan: When you were decided to start a community about web three growth, what was your thought process?

Was it this is gonna be the platform for a product, was it, here's a way I could create a forum where I'll understand what the hell's going on here? What was the motive? So to.

Justin: The big motivation actually for us was at the time we had built a Dow tool and we were trying to get in front of different people.

And a lot of them obviously would ask us like, well, which community is your Dow tool currently being used in? And we really struggled to get adoption with these different DAOs, and so we thought let's build our own community so that one we can use the tool in our own community and then go to other community.

And try and get them to use it as well. And two, building a community we expect will really put us in the mindset of our [00:07:00] target demographic, and then we'll know whether we're on the right path or not. The early batch came together. We had actually focused much more on community builders than on growth leaders, though that morphed a little bit.

But yeah, we learned from the first batch one, we thought that our tool sucked. We were like, we don't wanna use this tool that we built in our own community. What was the initial tool? The initial tool was an asana for web three. So thinking about how DAOs can collaborate, we were really thinking deeply about the on chain and off-chain experience.

A lot of DAOs that got started didn't have tokenomics and tokens from the start. And so if you were contributing to an. Dow that was starting to form. You essentially had no on chain reputation. Even so, there are a lot of people who worked for DAOs in the earliest phases, but all their efforts were off chain.

So we're thinking about ways that you could record in like a web two, asana, everything that was being done, and then drop them tokens [00:08:00] to reward that work so that their work would be captured on chain, either in real time or at a future point when the Doo did tokenize. But to have that be recorded. So that's kind of what we were looking at cuz we had joined different communities ourselves and had that experience.

Bryan: Then you started Safari and you were, I guess, trying to use this tool at first, cuz that was part of the thought process. And then what was the experience using your own tool? I

Justin: mean, I think what we really realized was there are the big Dows that you read about Maker, et cetera, and they're so large that they can just build their own custom tooling so they don't need tools.

And then there's the small, early stage communities like Safari was at the time and we just really didn't have a need. Advanced tooling or any tooling, so it didn't really make sense for our size of community. As the Dow tooling market evolved, we also realized there actually weren't that many communities in this in between zone that had resources that they could spend on a [00:09:00] tool, but that weren't large enough that they could just build their own tools.

We also started to see the Dow tooling market shift as we were building our own community. So we had this experience, right, where we had a product that had a lot of interest in zero adoption, and we had a community that was just surging an interest. . So we had to kind of do the web three thing and. I don't know where this community's going.

Let's ditch the tool, focus full-time on the community and see where this takes

Bryan: us. I'm glad you did. It's a great community and I'm happy to be a part of it. So kudos to you and thank you for that. I guess related a question is you have managed to amass a large swath of top growth marketers into this cozy corner of the internet.

Have you gone about doing this? Related to that, what did you learn along the way that you tweaked to make that process even

Justin: better? So I'd say the first thing that we did in terms of how did we attract all these growth leaders is I really [00:10:00] believe that a lot of people are doing community building wrong.

In web three, when I first entered the space, there were these huge, large discords. Super overwhelming. Nobody really knew each other. It wasn't what I thought a community really meant. And when I think about community, I think of an interconnected group of people that know each other. That can be a large community.

Safari is now 300, but that can also be a small community too. But I think these 50,000 person discords is not really what I think of when it comes to community building. , my hypothesis was if we nail the core experience and bring a lot of utility to members upfront, they'll wanna tell their friends and this will create this referral engine that brings more of the same.

So we're really fortunate in our first batch to have top growth leaders like the VP of Growth at Coin Market Cap, and the head of growth at Ledger, and many awesome early stage founders that have gone on to build really amazing products. And what we see is that they time and time again, bring back their [00:11:00] friends.

So we have this. High quality referral engine that has been built just by delivering on an awesome in-community experience. That's how we've continued to replicate getting more and more legit people. But in terms of channels themselves, we won Twitter like everyone else. . My other hypothesis is I think that personal brands are a lot more effective than company brands in Web three, and so I spend far more time thinking about my personal Web three Twitter than I do about safari's Twitter.

Sometimes I'll honestly just remix things that hit on my Twitter account and put them onto safaris five months later. It really all stems from my personal brands, which I never had before. Web three, I started the Twitter and Web three.

Bryan: A few thoughts come to mind. One is, yeah, it's kind of interesting how like I know the color of your cover photo, and I have a rough sense of who your avatar is in my head as I think across the space.

Do you know Rafa, the. [00:12:00] Yep. There's certain people that have these very iconic avatars that just stick out, so this is totally a thing. I tweeted about this the other day actually, cuz we were doing an announcement and I was trying to figure out what would get the most engagement. Should I tweet it? We in particular have a few brands and I was trying to figure out where should I tweet this from?

From one of the company brands. From my personal Twitter. I opted for my personal Twitter cuz I thought it was the least confusing considering we're going through this weird branding thing. I was interested and I have noticed, why do you think that is? That personal brands get more engagement. Company brands specifically in Web three?

Justin: I think it's two things. One, personal brands just naturally feel a lot warmer than a company brand. Even if it's a pfp, it still feels more human-like. Two, I think you also, with the algorithms, you get a good jumpstart. People actually know you, and so they feel more. Interested in supporting your content cuz it's you, you're like a real person.

They've met before. And in [00:13:00] Web three also. In general, I think as we were discussing before with the web three growth strategies, there's been this insane amount of growth, but there's still a very reasonable number of people that work in Web three. Web three feels very, very small at the same time in terms of the number of professionals that are known in the space.

And so I think that that's another reason why these personal brands. A little bit more engaging than the company brands, at least in web three. But yeah, I mean, if you look at Web two, Twitters, the people who run them. I don't wanna hate, but I don't feel like they're doing a great job, . It's really hard to do like corporate communications in a way that feels great and authentic.

You're either like doing some really boring stuff or you're doing memes and there's not really anything in between.

Bryan: I wonder if this lasts as Web three matures, my prediction probably is that it starts to become a lot more Web two, it's brands. But the one thing that is unique, I guess, is that Web three's a bit more polyamorous in general.

And so in that [00:14:00] sense, the company has kind of been de powered. Question for you related to that is for anybody that's listening in, that's like a web two growth marketer, what do you see as the three to five differences as one enters the web three sphere? This is a great transition cuz I guess this example of personal brands is one of.

Justin: Definitely. I think there are four main foundational challenges when we think about web three growth that really are what Web Two growth leaders should be thinking about when they enter the space. The big one, as we just mentioned, is definitely identity within the Web three space itself. A lot of on chain activity is pseudonymous.

And which is broken down. It's who's a whale versus who's a crypto native. So it's still like very basic in terms of our understanding of identity, which can be complicated as a web two growth marketer. He is used to being able to know everything about you. I think another one is communication too. The way that you communicate with people is different.

Web three communication [00:15:00] channels are still very nascent, and so a lot of things are still being done in a web two like fashion. Those are the big ones that create different types of environments on the identity piece and then the communication piece. And then the third I'd say is community. When you think about web three growth, a lot of it centers around community and I think that that's for a number of different reasons.

The big one, obviously being a lot of Web two strategies have already started saturating and Web three people are very sensitive about ads and user target. . But what this actually creates in my mind is a very different style of growth that's much more personal, which back to the connection about the personal brands and authentic and different.

And so I think that this is paving a new path that is important, very important in web three growth today. But I personally believe community life growth will be the future of. In web two as [00:16:00] well. So if you're a web two growth leader, thinking about making the jump into web three growth. Yeah, it's not web two or web three.

The strategies that are being used now I think are early experiments for how everyone's gonna be doing growth in the future.

Bryan: Also, you should try to join Safari . Yeah, that's interesting. Communication is such a mess. So many different channels, by the way, for anybody dabbling into Web three one software, and I think I mentioned this to you, I forget if I haven't, text.com.

Phenomenal software superhuman for messages. And in web three you end up on Telegram and Discord and Twitter and LinkedIn and this thing centralizes it into one place. And then also is the concept of archiving messages. Are you on text.com? So

Justin: I posted meeting something like this a while ago on Twitter, and I think it was you who posted about text.com.

I signed up for their wait list and I don't think I ever got off the wait list. So the text.com founders are listening. Let me in . Yeah, I have that exact same

Bryan: pain point [00:17:00] too. I got onto that the same way I got onto forecaster. By the way. You just DMed the founder. The trick.

Justin: I got into forecaster that way too, so I appreciated that tip.

I'll have to do that for text.com

Bryan: too. I had one other thought that came to mind. I think you. Tweet or it was in a safari call where you kind of pointed out, we're at the maturation of the internet where S scms gotten really expensive. SEOs gotten really competitive and so people have moved over to community and I thought that was really apt.

And then Web Three ends up being the tools to do that, provide community benefit. It's very

Justin: interesting. We've seen a lot of interesting new models come out of that as well. Of the internet today has gotten to this point where there was the promise of personalization at scale from mining all this data for consumers, but I think we never really got there.

Most of the like mass communication that I get inbound from advertisers, marketers pretty basic, not [00:18:00] necessarily catered toward me and doesn't make me feel closer to the brands. Some people do cool marketing activations and so I think the community growth also like takes us into this different sphere of more personalized direct relationship with a brand that we haven't seen as much of, at least not in like a really authentic way that comes with ownership in past spheres of the internet.

Bryan: Makes sense. I'm curious to get your take. So Web three moves a mile a minute. It's always interesting. Again, I thought Safari had been around for a year. I guess it's only been around since February. It's crazy. I'm curious when you reflect, the last year or eight months or whatever the relevant, applicable period is for you, what are two to three events that stand out as things to pay attention to, particularly in the field of growth marketing?

Justin: I think there are two for me, and the first touches on a lot of what we're just speaking about for what I'd say is the end of Web two growth. I don't know if you saw Netflix's Q1 earning. When it came out, [00:19:00] all web two marketers were talking about, because last Q1 in 2021, they spent around 500 million to acquire 4 million new paid subscribers.

So that's $125 cac. That's reasonable. But this q1, they spent the same budget. And only acquired 0.5 million new subscribers, a thousand dollars C for Netflix subscribers. I don't think Netflix's marketing team sucks or anything, but many people looked at this and was like, this is the canary in the coal mine.

A really strong indication of what's coming that this highly scalable web two marketing has really come to a natural saturation point, and I personally don't see a way back from.

Bryan: Remind me, so this is which period versus which

Justin: period? So this was Q1 of this year in 2022 versus Q1 of last. And I

Bryan: guess the other thing they had going for them in Q1 2021 was that it was [00:20:00] depending on where you are in the world, but it was thick of Covid.

Justin: It was still kind of thick of covid. It wasn't 2020. Right. It

Bryan: wasn't 20, 21 year into Covid. Right. California was in Lockdowns at that point, right? Yeah. Canada was totally in lockdowns, and so I guess at that point, it's probably easier to acquire people to a streaming service. So that's

one,

Justin: but an aex difference.

That's

Bryan: pretty. Yeah, that's crazy. What's the other one that you were gonna mention? So

Justin: the other one for me, I. I think you could name a lot of the really interesting web two brands that have entered Web three, but I'm actually gonna touch on a more boring one, A more boring Web two brand that entered Web three, which I thought was super, super interesting, which is, I don't know if you heard about Pearson, which is one of the world's largest textbook publishers.

they announced that they're planning to sell their textbooks as NFTs and their CEO mentioned a Pearson textbook is actually resold by students student to student up to seven times [00:21:00] throughout the lifetime of that textbook. You just think about like being in college. As soon as you have your textbook, you take a class, try and like resell it to another student.

You have no use for it. I just thought this was a really interesting challenge. We see this with artists of they only capture the value of the first sale of their song, but there are also a lot of old school businesses like Pearson that they only capture the value of the first sale as well, and they don't get secondary sales or any of those other types of mechanisms.

Reselling of certain items. That made me rethink where different industries could go, especially those that there are a lot of transactions that happen after the initial sale of certain items. It's not just digital collectibles, it's not just music. It's not just art. There are textbooks, there are different pieces of furniture.

There are lots of interesting things. Might have secondary sales in the future that pay royalties back to the company, which that's an interesting model I hadn't even [00:22:00] been thinking about. I was very squarely in the collectibles for NFTs space and, and less so thinking about some of these more. Boring old school industries.

Bryan: Totally. In their case, by the way. Now I'm just curious about the tactics. So is the thought that if you resell your textbook, the N F T should follow you give them the textbook and you give them the N F T? Or is this like a pdf N f T of the textbook?

Justin: What's the story? From my understanding is that you don't get a physical textbook anymore.

The NFT is an ebook of the textbook. You get all the information you need, you consume it, and then you resell the N F T to the student that wants it for the next

Bryan: class. That's interesting. It's interesting because I don't think that's gonna work very well. In the case of NFTs, people care about the status of having the OG real N F T.

Nobody cares about having the OG Pearon textbook. That's not how students are thinking about that, but it's a different type

Justin: of market. I [00:23:00] agree. Nobody cares about the OG Pearson text. If you buy the textbook for a hundred bucks and then you sell it for 50 and Pearson gets 3% and then the next person sells it, the textbook is definitely gonna decline in value every resale for sure.

And no one's gonna want the og. But it's just interesting to me to think about a textbook company getting some portion of resales into the future and how. Important or not important that will be for their future business model.

Bryan: Another one that I thought on that thread old industries getting into web three.

Another one that I think is gonna be interesting is, it's a pretty obvious one, but ticketing, the reselling of tickets is such a painful process. There's some this game, but there's an interesting dynamic at play, which is that all of the ticketing companies, any company that sells tickets, Doesn't want to make reselling easier because they oversell and that's how like planes do it.

We've all been at the airport where they're like, who wants for $500? Go home and fly to Morrow and blah, blah, blah, [00:24:00] blah, blah. I find it an interesting case of innovator's dilemma because. Per your point, you could take a cut of resales and solve this problem. So instead of overselling, you just take a cut of resales and then you're gonna be net even.

But you know, I, we used to working in consulting. I can imagine being in one of these 20,000 person companies and you're thinking about, do you go onto NFTs where you're gonna lose resales? And that's like a guaranteed loss of 20% of your revenue. Yeah, it's gonna take a while for people to get there. For sure.

Justin: I think it's super interesting all the use cases, especially that really old industries could come up with for new revenue streams, so definitely agree with you on the ticketing front as well,

Bryan: something I've been thinking about because the tools we're building relate to community driven growth, and so something I've been trying to think about is what does this landscape look like two to five years from now as it started to mature?

The cottage industry that we're in. I'm curious what you think the Web three MarTech landscape looks. I can [00:25:00] potentially call that just the MarTech landscape as Web three starts to become a bit more mainstream. So what do you think that looks like? And within that, what do you think are the most interesting new segments that potentially weren't so interesting before, but now are pretty interesting

Justin: for at least the next two years?

I think that the marketing technology landscape is gonna look pretty similar to how it does now in terms of, the way I think about marketing technology is there's attribution. Analytics, CRM, channel specific tools, communications, probably just competitive intelligence. So I imagine that will look quite similar.

Like these are, as we alluded to earlier, are gonna need to spin up more web three native communication tools and what's that gonna look like and how's it gonna play nicely with your web two marketing systems? In terms of the areas that I'm most interested in, I would. One is just around web three data.

I think that Web three data and data platforms. Are really interesting cuz in some ways Web Three creates unprecedented [00:26:00] transparency of company revenue. Users. Customers and transactions are public, and this data's open and composable. Anyone can capture its value theoretically. Obviously there are companies that are spinning up now and need to be spun up in the future to make it more accessible for the average non-engineering, non-technical.

But in many ways, growth leaders will have access to data they never really had in web two. And so I think that the combination of web two and web three data and the combination of web two and web three identities is definitely an interesting space where we'll see a lot of marketing technology players enter.

But another one that I think is coming and is coming about in the way of community-led growth is we're seeing a whole new wave of social commerce and community. Tools coming together in interesting ways that I don't think I've really seen before. At least in the West. They're interesting examples of social commerce in China [00:27:00] and other places in Southeast Asia, but we haven't really seen it elsewhere yet.

But I think that a lot of the tools will rise to think about how do you create direct relationships at scale. Through personalized crm, how do you facilitate group purchasing decisions among different small groups of people? There are different Chinese marketers and case studies that have done this.

There's a $20 item and if you get five of your friends to buy it with you, then it's 1299 for each of you. Different direct consumer experiences that we don't really typically see, but I think that there's also a larger conversation with what is community-wide growth gonna look like at scale and.

Systems are gonna need to be spun up to support it. And I think that that is where we'll see a lot, a lot, a lot of innovation in terms of the community side, but also how do content creators and other creators get value along the chain instead of just large web two ad platforms. There are a lot of different areas that I [00:28:00] believe will be disrupted in the marketing technology landscape, which will be largely based off of the new strategies that people will be using in the years.

Makes a

Bryan: ton of sense. On the latter point that you made around social commerce, are there a couple examples that potentially are less known about, but you've noticed and you think are particularly interesting that exists

Justin: today? One model is the way that a lot of influencer marketing is done today.

There'll be like a brand that'll say like, we're willing to pay $30. Referral price on this a hundred dollars item, and there will be all these influencers that the way that a lot of attribution works today is blast touch, last click attribution, which basically means whoever's link was clicked to actually purchase that item is the one who gets the money.

But we know anecdotally from like consumer purchasing behavior, you don't just see an ad and then you like buy the. Create a blog post. You see the ad, you see another ad, you do this, you do that, and [00:29:00] then you might Google search it, click on an ad and buy the thing. You might actually just see a third ad, but from a different company after the influencer showed it to you, and then you buy the thing.

And so there's not a great way that all the different parts, and especially as creators, Really rise up. There's not a way for all the different people that contributed to that purchase get value. And what I'm seeing in terms of another element of social commerce is if you have four different influencers and a user that clicks links from four of them and then they purchase on the last one.

In today's world, only the last one gets the sale. But in new models that I'm. Each of those influencers that had a link click from a specific user that resulted then in a purchase by one of them, get a portion of that revenue rather than just the last

Bryan: one. That's quite cool. And I guess if that attribution is on chain, then you can see, for example, when did that wallet eventually make the purchase?

Was that after these [00:30:00] other attribution? That's very interesting.

Justin: So I think we'll see multi-touch attribution. Come to fruition in a way with individual creators and influencers that we haven't really seen yet today. So a lot of what I expect of marketing technology is one trend that was going on remixed with another one, and we kind of see that in a lot of different areas like community, like growth was starting to become popular then it just got like remixed with web three and became this whole other ecosystem of ideas.

Social commerce had been going. But now it's getting remixed with, well, the creator ownership and creators getting more of the monetization than just the really big creators. So I think there are a lot of interesting themes that are getting mixed together that will then create new tools to support those strategies.

Bryan: Makes a lot of sense. Very interesting. So my goal with these podcasts is to try to keep them to 30 minutes. So far I haven't been super successful, but I guess one last question to leave you with is, and I think this is [00:31:00] an interesting question to ask, lots of smart folks, crowdsource interesting people, I guess, who are the two to three people that you want to praise by saying you learned the most from them in web three growth and beyond.

Justin: That's a really hard question, but I think that I'll have to show my individual community members, so I have three of them that are coming to mind right now. One is Mattias Conrado, who leads growth at Axl R Network. He was in our first batch and informed a lot of the ways that I've thought about community building by giving really honest feedback at every turn.

Yeah, that like didn't hit or this did. I think that the community could use that, but really. What I would say is the pulse of the early safari community that drove a lot of the direction that we took it in, into the future. The second one is Thomas Pan, who is an absolute content machine. He's exposed me to a whole new world of culture and brand through [00:32:00] NFTs, and he's a web three growth leader and content creator in his own.

And the third is John Wu, who is the head of growth at Aztec Network. He has an incredible talent for breaking down extremely complex subjects into really simple anecdotes. I don't know if you saw his podcast on cartoon avatars, but it was just a phenomenal way of defending web three, but also breaking down ZK proofs and other things in simple terms.

And I think that. What we need more of in the space is people like John who can take these what are extremely complex blockchain technology things and make them simple and approachable for the average person. And I feel like for the most part, we haven't quite gone there yet. There are a lot of us attempting to explain Blockchain 1 0 1 and others to our friends and family, but the more we can have people like John who can break down these complex things and have anecdotes that other people share, I think we'll take the space [00:33:00] forward in a really meaningful way.

So those are the three. early community builder content machine and be able to break things down. Well, I've learned a lot from the three of them and so many other Safari members do here,

Bryan: here, and I couldn't agree more with the last point. It's a bit of a cottagers industry right now, and I think we could all do a bit more to try to make it a bit more transparent and approachable.

Sometimes we do quite the opposite. . I realize I didn't use any sound effects this whole time, but I want to thank you for coming on, so I will ignite the crowds to clap you.

Justin: Sound effects

Bryan: are great. I should use more of them. I need to get into the habit. All right, well, thanks man, and look forward to seeing you again in Discord and shooting the shit

Justin: more now. This was fun. Thanks for having me and hope that people receive it well as well.

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